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Fifty Boys Gather To Compete For 1930 Edison Scholarship
High contrast, rolling images Contestants first had to beat 10,000 other youths in competition - winner of second annual contest to receive free technical education at the expense of electrical wizard.
August 4, 1994 - Part 12
(23:10:47) Mr. NUSSBAUM. I know but The CHAIRMAN. I think you're demonstrating the very thing that probably happened in that meeting. I was very tempted to interrupt your statement. I didn't do so. Mr. NUSSBAUM. I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman. I apologize. The CHAIRMAN. No, but--I'm not taking it personally. I think it's an illustration of your exuberance, having the kind of effect I Suspect it had on Mr. Altman at the time because he obviously-he agonized about this decision. He didn't want to displease people. He didn't want people to react negatively to this decision. I think there's plenty that suggests that and I think he got a pretty good dose from you, but that was a time when he was an independent head of an agency, at least in the capacity that he was in there, that you should have respected that difference. Despite the fact that you had strongly held views, that you're a highly competent lawyer, that you had a strong opinion, you had a strong opinion on Ms. Kulka as well, I think that was one time when you should have kept it to yourself. I think it had no part in these considerations and should not have had. I don't think that was relevant whatsoever to what should have gone on here. The fact it might have been up in your head, I think you were in a different role, in a different capacity and you ought to have restrained yourself from interfering in that decision. I think you did interfere with it, and my own judgment is you affected it and I think that was wrong. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Can I respond, Mr. Chairman? The CHAIRMAN. Yes, please. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Mr. Chairman, I was Counsel to the President. I was Counsel to the President, acting in a offlicial capacity. I was a senior Executive Branch official. What Mr. Altman was suggesting touched on an important Executive Branch policy, what I believe should be an Executive Branch policy and is an Executive Branch policy. An Executive Branch official has a duty to do his duty unless he's legally or ethically required to recuse himself. This affects all Executive Branch officials. We were handling the Tigert nomination. What Mr. Altman was suggesting would have had an effect on that nomination. I was acting in my role as a senior Executive Branch official in order to get him to consider whether or not he should do something which might adversely impact that important policy. Mr. Chairman, with all respect, I understand you feel strongly about it and I'm starting to feel some pressure also--it goes both ways in this, Mr. Chairman. Nonetheless, I felt that I was doing my duty in saying to him, Roger, just consider whether or not you should recuse yourself if you're not legally or ethically required to do so. This is a policy that affects the entire Executive Branch, What he was suggesting was something I believe to be totally unprincipled, wrong. And I'm entitled, as one Executive Branch official to another Executive Branch official, to consider whether he should do that. That is my job and that is my duty. 481 I understand, Mr. Chairman, that we disagree and maybe other Members of the Committee agree with You and don't agree with me. But I thought, Mr. Chairman, that I was doing my job. I thought, Mr. Chairman, I was acting in a principled manner. I thought, Mr. Chairman, I was acting on behalf of the Presidency, in the President's official capacity. I was not doing it, Mr. Chairman, to affect the private interest of the President. I was not doing it for that reason. I was not doing it, Mr. Chairman, because I held some negative feelings about Ms. Kulka at that time. I was not doing it. I was doing it to enforce or to support an important principle, which I believe exists and which I hope you believe exists, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. But even if you were right on the principle, it would have been somebody else's job to present that point to him, not yours, because you were there representing the President of the United States. This is an independent agency. This is the acting head of an agency announcing his intention to make a decision, and you put yourself right square in the middle of it. You went butting right into it. I'm telling you my view. I don't think you should have done it. I don't care how strongly you felt about it. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Strong feelings, Mr. Chairman The CHAIRMAN. I'm talking about strength of feeling based on the merit of your argument, Mr. NUSSBAUM. I was about to acknowledge, strong feelings on my part do not justify conduct on my part. It's not that I felt strongly about it. I felt this was the proper thing to do. The CHAIRMAN, What I'm saying to you is, I think you were wrong. I think it was improper on both those grounds.
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People/Children (Reels 3 of 3)
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"Dare Death - 600 feet in air!"
High contrast, rolling images Dare death 600 feet in air! - workers on new lindbergh beacon nonchalant amid perilous tasks. Building Downtown Chicago. Camera scanning building from the bottom to the top. Iron workers on top of skeleton of a new building which is being erected. "Dare Death - 600 feet in air!" This is the Palmolive Building, 919 North Michigan Avenue.
Lipton's newest challenger for the america cup
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Fire consumes noted landmark!
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August 4, 1994 - Part 12
(23:15:39) Mr. NUSSBAUM. Mr. Chairman The CHAIRMAN. So we both have made our statements. Mr. NUSSBAUM. One further point if I can, Mr. Chairman. I'm very grateful to you for permitting me to engage in this dialogue with you. This notion about the RTC being an independent agency as if it's some Executive Branch agency. The head of the RTC is appointed by the President, and he serves subject to confirmation by the Senate and he serves at the pleasure of the President. It is not an independent agency like the SEC or agencies like that. It really doesn't fall into that category, but I'm not sure that makes a big difference here. The CHAIRMAN. Wait a second. Mr. NUSSBAUM. I don't want to pin The CHAIRMAN. But you've made that point and you've put it on the record, and I want to challenge that point. Once the appointment is made of someone to head that agency, that does not create a continuing ability for the President or the President's lawyer to reach into that agency in any way, shape or form. I'm asking you to think about it because that's where the line is and I think you crossed the line on both counts, and that's part of the reason we've got this problem and it's why we're here. I don't say it to say that you had some intention to create a problem for anybody or that you had any improper motive. I'm not saying that at all. In fact, I'm saying that I don't believe that but I think what You did here was wrong on those two counts, and it helped set in motion these chain of events which has caused this position. 482 Mr. NUSSBAUM. I understand your position, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Senator DAmato. Senator DAMATO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, let me say that this is not pleasant. Mr. Nussbaum is a fierce advocate in the highest and finest tradition. There's no doubt in my mind it was that fierce advocacy, not only on behalf of the President, but also the President's Office as well, and I understand your contentions. I've read your deposition as well as your statement tonight. I'm in total agreement as it relates to the Chairman's statements of moving over the line. I have to tell you, there's no doubt in my mind Mr. Altman was under pressure. He felt it. He talked about it. It was written about. It's been reported. We can quibble with the nuances of how it came about, but it did. And by the way, I have to make an assessment here that at least Bernard Nussbaum tells you where he stands. Came in here like a man. Stood up. I disagree with him, but I have to tell you, that's one thing; reasonable people can have disagreement. But, I think he told us exactly what he felt and I don't quarrel with that. I don't question the way he felt. I don't question his motivations. It brought us to this point. But there's one other person, at least one other person, I think others have come in also with less than clear positions and tried to save the day for Roger the Dodger. What a gutless wonder, right down to this day. This is a man who will have you believe that everybody else did it. He wasn't responsible for anything. Oh, not Roger the Dodger. This lawyer did it and that lawyer did it and the other one did it and he didn't know. I have to tell you that he's got an excuse. He's got people who should have told him what to say and they didn't tell him, they nodded, didn't nod. It's just incredible. But there is no further point and no useful purpose, I believe, to make further inquiry of this witness, He at least comes forth and sets forth his position, clearly. We have differences in the record, there's no doubt, but I don't see any useful purpose, Mr. Chairman, in this Senator making further inquiry. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator D'Amato. Senator Sarbanes. Senator SARBANES. Thank you, very much, Mr. Chairman. I actually would like to put a few questions to Mr. Nussbaum. First of all, it's Altman who came to the White House and raised the recusal matter, the White House didn't go to him; is that correct?
August 4, 1994 - Part 12
(23:20:44) Mr. NUSSBAUM, That's correct, sir. Senator SARBANES. Now, why was Altman shopping the decision about recusal with people at the White House, do you know? Mr. NUSSBAUM. No, I really don't. I think-I can speculate-I hate to do this-but I think-maybe I'm affected in part by watch- ing his testimony-I think he was generally troubled and unde- cided as to what to do. I understand that there's also evidence, and I'm looking at the Chairman when I say this, too, that he decided the day before. I understand it was in his talking points. I didn't know it at the time. I didn't know he had talking points when he was sitting at the February 2nd meeting. It was a Washington thing I learned about when I got to Washington. People don't 1 0 to meetings without talking points. But I think he was genuinely confused or searching to us for advice. 483 Senator SARBANES. Did he raise the issue in terms of I'm thinking of recusing myself, what do people think? Mr. NUSSBAUM. He didn't quite say it like that but what he said was, he was strongly inclined to recuse himself I think Ms. Hanson remembers that he said to us that he would recuse himself. I don't remember it like that, Senator Sarbanes. I remember him saying I'm strongly inclined to recuse myself and it just came out of the blue. I'm not saying it's an excuse. If it's improper to have this discussion, I shouldn't have had this discussion. Mr. Cutler's point of view is similar to the Chairman's point of view, at least in some respects it's similar. He disagrees with me. He agrees with the Chairman here. But nonetheless, it came out of the blue. He sort of said it and he sort of waited for us to respond. And since I'm usually a big talker, I'm the only one who responded. The CHAIRMAN. He didn't have to wait long, did he? Mr. NUSSBAUM. I say this to Senator Sarbanes and the Chairman, but I'm disproving it today by my testimony and my actions, I think I was really fairly calm at that meeting. I know no one believes this anymore. Senator D'AMATO. I do. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Thank you, Senator D'Amato. I really chose my words carefully and I really tried to act carefully because the subject took me by surprise and, therefore, I didn't have time to consider all the implications. Having considered it, I'm not apologetic one wit, as people here can tell, about what I did, but I was careful because it did take me by surprise. I think it would have been appropriate for me to tell him, Roger, you have no business recusing yourself if there's no legal or ethical obligation to do so, but I did not say that. I admit I didn't appear happy. I didn't embrace him or kiss him or anything like that when he announced this thing. I may have appeared cold, but I didn't tell him to remain on the case. I said three things. I said, one, if you're legally or ethically Obligated to recuse yourself, do so. But two, if you're not, please consider whether or not it's appropriate to do so. And I said, three, Mr. Chairman--Senator Sarbanes is still questioning, but I'm still thinking in exchange with the Chairman -I said three, it's up to you. In the final analysis it's your decision and your decision to make. If that's butting in, if that's pressuring him, if that's leading him in, let other people make that interpretation. I happen to think it's not. Senator SARBANES. Was Altman in and out of the White House frequently? Mr. NUSSBAUM. Yes, he was in and out of the White House fre- quently. Senator SARBANES. I want to know how the White House ever al- lowed Altman to go on wearing two hats for such a long period of time, or let me put the question to you this way: If Altman had not been the Deputy Secretary of the Treasury but the acting head of the---the head of the RTC, in other words above----that was his job. He didn't have a second job as Deputy Secretary of the Treasury, and he were in and out of the White House as often as he was as Deputy Secretary of the Treasury. And you know, you've perceived him as the head of the RTC handling these matters and he reaised the recusal issue, would you have perceived him differently? 484
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Arthur O. Williams, Jr. Wins Edison scholarship!
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The President receives!
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Old Ladies Short, Young Ladies Long, New Fall Coiffures
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August 4, 1994 - Part 12
(23:25:30) Would someone have said wait a second, I know you said, well the President appoints the head of the RTC. He serves at the pleas ure of the President, but nevertheless, lie's carrying out certain very sensitive responsibilities. And would someone have said, you know, this head of the RTC ought not to be popping in and out of here at the White House all the time? Why doesn't lie go off and do his job running the RTC? Mr. NUSSBAUM. That's right. And people should do their job running their agencies. And people-what I'm having difficulty getting across, as I watch these hearings on television in part, is people don't seem to be, to me, appreciating the notion that a person is obligated to do his duty unless he is legally or ethically required to recuse himself. Now, I think that's a fundamental principle, a significant Administration policy, and I see no problem with the White House mak. ing it clear to people, whether it's Roger Altman or Gene Ludwig who all of a sudden sua sponte decides to recuse himself because he reads a newspaper article. I do not think it is in the President's interest in his capacity as President to have a group of officials who run for cover every time some political opponent criticizes him, sends him a letter or some newspaper writes an article about him. If you have-if you are ethically or legally required to recuse yourself, and there are also rules with respect to that, do so. Do so promptly. But if you are not, you stay in your job and you do your duty and if you do not want to do your duty, you quit. You quit. You leave the Government. Senator SARBANES. Let me ask you, because I see my time is about expired here. I'm interested in Jean Hanson reporting to you on September 29 about the criminal referrals again. This was after the Waco meeting. Was it your understanding or impression that Hanson was bringing this information to you pursuant to a directive or an authorization from Altman, or was it your perception that Hanson was acting on her own in bringing this information to you? Mr. NUSSBAUM. I didn't-my answer to that, Senator Sarbanes, I just didn't think about it at the time. She didn't say she was coming pursuant to a direction from Altman. She did say, as I indicated in my testimony, that she thought Altman had sent me some material with respect to this matter previously, which was this fax that came in March of 1993, but I had no Senator SARBANES. But at the time she told you about the criminal referrals, she also told you that Altman had sent you some material about this matter before; is that correct? Mr. NUSSBAUM. That's correct. She did tell me that, which turned out to be this fax. But she didn't tell me and I didn't think whether or not she was coming at the direction of Altman. We didn't discuss it and I had no thought with regard to it at the time. Senator SARBANES. My time is up, The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Sarbanes. Senator Mack. Senator MACK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I mean no disrespect, but I appreciate what has happened here this week, there has been some-there's some releasing of tensions and I appreciate the way you've handled yourself. I also appreciate 485 the commitment that you have to protecting the Office of the Presidency. I mean, I think that comes through very, very strongly. Mr. NUSSBAUM. That's what I was trying to do. senator MACK. And you clearly did. I really only have one question and it goes to this point: Given your knowledge of the referrals, that is that the referrals were going to be made, and your discussion with Hanson and subsequent discussions with Sloan, why would you let the President of the United States meet with Governor Tucker on October 6th?
August 4, 1994 - Part 12
(00:10:37) Mr. NUSSBAUM. Senator, did you see my staff here the other day, the members of my staff who testified? Beth Nolan and Joel Klein and Neal Eggleston. Senator BOND. Yes. Mr. NUSSBAUM. And Cliff Sloan. Senator BOND. Yes, I did. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Did you think they were fairly impressive people? Senator BOND. I think I'm asking the questions, Mr. Nussbaum, but there were people in the White House who looked to you for guidance and you didn't give them the guidance. Mr. Gearan at least was not a lawyer. Mr. NUSSBAUM. I think Senator BOND. Let me ask you a question. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Can I respond to you? Senator BOND. I'm going to have to--are you going to extend the time? The CHAIRMAN. I'll extend your time. I think he ought to have a chance Mr. NUSSBAUM. If I can just respond. I surrounded myself in the White House and the Counsel's Office with excellent people. Some of the other people in the White House, especially Mr. Lindsey, are people of superb character, superb judgment, good lawyers. I don't have to tell them that you shouldn't misuse inside information or nonpublic information you're getting. These people knew their responsibilities, knew their roles. I didn't have to go around telling these people not to do that and indeed, Senator, with all respect, I recognize you feel strongly about this, too. With all respect, Senator, there is not a single shred of evidence that anybody misused this information in any way. Not a single thread of evidence that documents were destroyed, or people tipped off. Those are just, in my view, Senator, irresponsible charges when somebody makes them when there is no evidence for those charges. And the fact that I didn't tell people not to abuse their oath, it ,Wasn't necessary. These people know that as well as I, perhaps even better than 1. Senator BOND. Mr. Chairman, if I may resume. would comment on that. I would make the statement that it's I think it's significant you used the term "shred of evidence," and unfortunately, that raises a question because as you and I know if evidence has disappeared, it would be very difficult to prove. That is not the charge that that was done in this case, but the danger of it is the reason that nonpublic information on criminal cases shouldn't be shared. Now, Mr. Lindsey did say that he had a discussion with Mr Lyons. Let me ask you, does the same standard apply to judges? You cited Justice Rehnquist. Had President Clinton appointed Altman and this case, a civil case, come before Mr. Altman, would Altman as a judge have to disqualify himself? Mr. NUSSBAUM. No, I don't believe so. Senator BOND. Well, that may be the standard in the Southern District of New York, Mr. Nussbaum, but I've got to tell you just recently, a year ago, I had to file a lawsuit in the Eastern District of Missouri. Some of the judges I had previously appointed to State judgeships. Others, I had voted, as a Senator, to confirm. One of them, our sole contact, said that 22 years ago, he had made a campaign contribution to me. All of them disqualified themselves. Now, as an advocate, you can make a strong case if you are trying to defend somebody (00:14:12)(tape #10097 ends)